Curse

Shriketalon · Oct 13, 2010, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by doomfodder

I'll throw this question out to the hardore & casual PvE community that's reading this thread. What would incent you to participate in PvP? HoM requirement? $ rewards? more zkeys? more balth? something else? Or is there no incentive at all because you absolutely hate the venues themselves? Or no incentive at all because you refuse to participate due to the rank discrimination?

Reasonable access to reasonable fun.

At its core, as Ye Olde PvE Common Man, I don't PvP because it is simply too much of a hassle. The only way to get into a group is to have a high title or high fame. The only way to get high fame or high titles is to get a good group. There's more to it than that, of course, but at the end of the day, there is simply too much effort that goes into getting through the starting gate. To really play PvP, you have to do a hell of a lot of networking, and most of the established norms of who is good team material and who should be ignored were established years ago.

It's no accident that Aspenwood/JQ are more amusing to me than any of the advanced PvP realms. Not only can I play when I want to play, joining a match whenever I want, but there's plenty of room to screw around a little and try new things. It's not perfect, of course (it's full of noobs! Noobs, I tell you!

), but the ability to pick up and play makes it far more attractive than spending an hour trying to find a team just for ten minutes of game time using a boring meta build. And when the only possibility for avoiding that is giving up my current guild to find one that likes PvP and is somehow willing to bring me into the fold, the yield isn't worth the demand.

Would greater rewards bring me into PvP? No. Only a better experience would do that.

PvP can be fun, sure. But at the end of the day, I could get a good, albeit different PvP experience by playing one of the other games I own that lets me utilize that pick-up-and-play style in its own venue. And it would be far less hassle, which makes my experience all the more enjoyable.

Shadar · Oct 13, 2010, 11:24 PM // 23:24

I think a lot of pve guys in this thread don't understand how empty pvp arenas are. Here, this screenshot is maybe a week old:

That's 5 hours of NOONE playing! Any new players are welcome!

Sure, the game is old, but if Anet actually made an effort to promote pvp like they had a chance with this HoM calculator maybe someone new would try it and like it.
And to anyone mentioning elitism/whatever, that's just an excuse for being too lazy to form your own guilds/groups with people of equal (in)experience. All you need to suceed in pvp are players that are willing to put in the time and effort, to listen and learn from mistakes as a team. And not give up at the first dump in the road!

Still Number One · Oct 13, 2010, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by doomfodder

I'll throw this question out to the hardore & casual PvE community that's reading this thread. What would incent you to participate in PvP? HoM requirement? $ rewards? more zkeys? more balth? something else? Or is there no incentive at all because you absolutely hate the venues themselves? Or no incentive at all because you refuse to participate due to the rank discrimination?

This brings up a question.

Will getting more people to participate in PvP improve the format overall? At first glance yes. More people = more competition = more games played = less wait time, etc.

But if you think about it further you start to ask the question, would I rather play 10 lackluster games or 1 amazing game? If you want quantity over quality, then getting more people to play no matter what the cost is a good thing. If you prefer quality, you have to think about this further.

You can give them an incentive to start playing, but can you give them the incentive to keep on playing after they have started? Is the incentive high enough for them to want to endure the growing pains, and beat the learning curve to eventually play high end PvP (where you actually can earn more money now then PvE). If they can get to that level then you increase the amount of guilds participating in AT's and mAT's (the premiere PvP) and thus hopefully making it a more enjoyable experience.

Or will this influx of new players end up being bottom feeders who simply stay at the bottom, have no interest in getting better, and will only play as long as there are enough people in the exact same situation that they can farm eachother and make money off of beating players just as bad as them. IMO this doesn't add anything to PvP at all. There is no change in AT's and mAT's and ladders are now filled with a bunch of guilds farming eachother to make quick money.

In fact if you dive into this deeper, I think GvG would be relatively unchanged. HA participation would rise, and RA would become even worse. RA is already overpopulated with terrible players using terrible builds which is frustrating to deal with as an experienced player being held back by others inadequacies. HA wait times will drop, but really the only people gaining from this are the people currently farming it because they have more bad teams to beat up on. Meanwhile these newer players will only be able to beat each other and eventually get fed up and want to play with better players. They will then find out better players don't want to play with them because they dramatically decrease their chance of winning (You are only as good as your weakest link). Then we get tons of posts on this forum screaming about PvP Elitism and how everyone who PvP's is an asshole because they refuse to gimp themselves to accommodate bad players.

I really don't think the problem with PvP is incentives. Well actually it is, but not the incentives you are talking about. The incentive that is lacking is time. The influx of new GvGers really took its toll around EOTN release. This is when it was announced they were giving up on their original business plan and now making GW2. Now all the sudden the newer players no longer want to take the time to learn and grow in the game. They think GW2 is right around the horizon so by the time I get good GW2 will be here so it won't matter. The incentive to get better and improve is gone, because they feel there isn't enough time. So they want to take shortcuts. Unfortunately for them, those shortcuts do not exist (unless you are a girl). Players then get mad, make threads badmouthing PvP, other people read thread, get a bad idea about PvP, and now your influx of new players is gone.

Old players keep leaving because the game is old. They have found better ways to use their time then continue playing guild wars. New players don't come in because they don't feel like it is worth it to go through the learning curve. All the sudden the entire middle tier of competition is gone (either by quitting or filling the void of the high end players) and there is no longer anyway for people to improve even if they want to.

TLDR: I doubt adding monetary incentives will fix PvP.

snaek · Oct 13, 2010, 11:45 PM // 23:45

incentive to pvp, if implemented correctly, would definitely help pvp. perhaps not fix it, but definitely help it.

glad title is a joke. 'pvp love' update is a joke. zrank is a joke. codex arena is a joke. skill balancing is a joke.

anet is just doing it wrong.

Trader of Secrets · Oct 13, 2010, 11:47 PM // 23:47

PvP itself had its rewards already in GW1, if you are good enough. But if you take a look at most of these PvE titles, there are no rewards in GW1 for them.

TalanRoarer · Oct 13, 2010, 11:55 PM // 23:55

I agree that there is no route into PvP for a PvE player aside from RA. (Silly PvP'ers and their rank discrimination) owait... showstoens.

However,
My guild did spend a few nights doing HA (Jaggedway). Sure, we're noobs. But it was fun and we all earned 5-20 fame

.

Mireles · Oct 14, 2010, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

incentive to pvp, if implemented correctly, would definitely help pvp. perhaps not fix it, but definitely help it.

glad title is a joke. 'pvp love' update is a joke. zrank is a joke. codex arena is a joke. skill balancing is a joke.

anet is just doing it wrong.

well since you seem to be so certain that its all anets fault and rank discrimination and high party wait times as a result is not what made pvp what is it now... what should anet do to fix it?

dwchang · Oct 14, 2010, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

pve players dont get gold capes qq fix naow anet or u sux

I realize you're being sarcastic, but PvE players actually do have Gold capes and it's quite easy to achieve. They just buy it. Frankly most of the old "famous" Guilds are now in the hands of PvE-only Guilds that bought them. I think it's pretty hilarious seeing them in Spamdan being all high and mighty when they didn't actually earn it and thus no one actually respects them.

Then again, the Guild did sell it so you can't blame a person for wanting to buy "fame" or "prestige" I guess.

own age myname · Oct 14, 2010, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Real hardcore PvPers could care less about little HoM rewards. Especially when getting to 30 is easy...

Still Number One · Oct 14, 2010, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

well since you seem to be so certain that its all anets fault and rank discrimination and high party wait times as a result is not what made pvp what is it now... what should anet do to fix it?

While it isn't all A.nets fault, they do take up a very large chunk of blame. Not all players who left, quit because they did everything they wanted to and decided to ride off into the sunset. A lot of players quit out of frustration due to A.Nets complete lack of understanding the game they created, and the horrible updates that resulted because of the fact. It is pretty frustrating to have the people in charge of the game show a complete lack of understanding time and time again, and when help and advice is offered, have your words fall on deaf ears.

rank discrimination isn't a problem. There is supposed to be rank discrimination. It is part of the competitive world. The best play with the best, middle tier play with the middle tier, and lower tier play with the lower tier. This is how every single form of competition works, not just guild wars. Really the only exception is when professional sports require players to attend at least a year of University rather then moving straight into the Pros even if they are ready Athletically.

You don't need rank to get rank. You need rank to play with people who have rank. People with no rank are supposed to play with other people with no rank. Then you get rank, get noticed and move on when someone thinks your abilities are up to par. Don't try to tell me it isn't possible because it is. It only takes 8 players to form a team and there are a lot more than 8 people constantly complaining about rank discrimination. Go play with them. If you refuse to, the problem isn't the PvPers with the rank, it is you for looking for a shortcut rather than taking the beaten path. Stop pointing fingers at others when the real problem is yourself. Only then will you learn to improve.

High party wait times however, is a valid problem. Which is caused by the lack of incoming players. There is way too much to write about why that occurs, but as I stated in my last point, I believe the main reason is the lack of the incentive to take the time to improve. A lot of people don't like PvP because that sort of competition doesn't interest them. But those people have always existed. It wasn't until a few years back that the people who actually do flock to that sort of competition deemed it not worth it anymore to attempt to beat the learning curve, and I believe the main culprit as to why is GW2. And if I happen to be correct in my assumption then there is absolutely nothing that can be done to change the lack of an influx of newer players.

BogusDude · Oct 14, 2010, 01:30 AM // 01:30

I fear many pvpers live in a box, you seriously underestimate how many pvers have no interest in pvp whatsoever. Adding more points to the HoM calculator "may" encourage some casual PvPers to do a little more, but for the vast majority who have no interest and know to get a statue would mean spending alot of hours doing something you really don't like, well we'd just live with missing out on a few points. PvP is a small part of mmorpg's, likely because the player base is of a higher age than FPS' and care more about friends and community than leetism. You've been very well looked after here in GWs despite the continuous whining since day 1 and being a minority.

byteme! · Oct 14, 2010, 01:36 AM // 01:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

incentive to pvp, if implemented correctly, would definitely help pvp. perhaps not fix it, but definitely help it.

glad title is a joke. 'pvp love' update is a joke. zrank is a joke. codex arena is a joke. skill balancing is a joke.

anet is just doing it wrong.

Start from scratch. Remove ranks and emotes. Then I'll consider it.

*lemming* · Oct 14, 2010, 01:45 AM // 01:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by BogusDude

I fear many pvpers live in a box, you seriously underestimate how many pvers have no interest in pvp whatsoever.

I'm fairly sure that if not for HoM rewards, most PvEers would have minimal interest in crafting a half dozen destroyer items they'd never use.

vamp08 · Oct 14, 2010, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malice Black

It's just titles and shitty little rewards, nothing worth having a heart attack over.

QFT

Odds are nobody will even care about the GW1 "imported" items or titles, there will probably be WAY better looking/rare items in GW2 alone.

Get over it, PvP has sucked since factions came out...in fact...who even plays this game for PvP anyways? If you want PvP there are many better games out there.

PvP's time has come and gone, who cares.

Shriketalon · Oct 14, 2010, 03:07 AM // 03:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

While it isn't all A.nets fault, they do take up a very large chunk of blame. Not all players who left, quit because they did everything they wanted to and decided to ride off into the sunset. A lot of players quit out of frustration due to A.Nets complete lack of understanding the game they created, and the horrible updates that resulted because of the fact. It is pretty frustrating to have the people in charge of the game show a complete lack of understanding time and time again, and when help and advice is offered, have your words fall on deaf ears.

Funny thing about it, though. Everyone says Anet never listens, but no one ever has the exact same viewpoint. The "words fall on deaf ears" because there are a thousand words from a thousand different opinions about what is balanced, what is unfair, what needs to be changed, and how it should be.

If anything, that's one of the reasons PvE won the big struggle. That crowd was just easier to please. That's not a bad thing, mind you. It allowed Anet to cater to a base and explore their creative sides, rather than regress to constantly retreading the same ground, shuffling skills around to the continuous complaints of a belligerent bunch. I don't mean to be rude to the PvP crowd, mind you. But historically speaking, they aren't happy campers. Combine that with the fact that PvE sells better, and Anet's move seems quite understanding indeed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

You don't need rank to get rank. You need rank to play with people who have rank. People with no rank are supposed to play with other people with no rank. Then you get rank, get noticed and move on when someone thinks your abilities are up to par. Don't try to tell me it isn't possible because it is. It only takes 8 players to form a team and there are a lot more than 8 people constantly complaining about rank discrimination. Go play with them. If you refuse to, the problem isn't the PvPers with the rank, it is you for looking for a shortcut rather than taking the beaten path. Stop pointing fingers at others when the real problem is yourself. Only then will you learn to improve.

Sure, it's possible. It's just not worth it.

Look, I could spend a few months fighting against the status quo to work my way up there, and maybe I'd actually manage to GvG in a nice group after about one third to half a year. But quite frankly, I've got better things to do with my time.

You know what would fix PvP? A reasonably balanced playing field, lots of fun options that allow both casual environments and hardcore play, all within a good system that encouraged teamwork of all types rather than devolving into two or three working metagame setups. In other words, hopefully what GW2 will be. WvW, the new weapon system, and the breaking of the trinity mean a whole lot more for both PvE and PvP alike.

So if my choices are slogging through all the negativity to barely achieve a passable game through ridiculous amounts of time and effort, or go play another game with a better matchmaking system while waiting for the new hotness to come out.....well, I'd say that choice isn't difficult.

Vazze · Oct 14, 2010, 03:20 AM // 03:20

Organized GW1 pvp has been dead for some time (actually it did not really live too long). "Solo" pvp is still alive but largely ignored as it always has been. This is a nail hammered into a new coffin: GW2 pvp, albeit a very small one.

PvP is not played for "the sake of playing" it. Players still need to feel rewarded. Pvpers not having their own "connect" does show what we can expect from GW2.

slowerpoke · Oct 14, 2010, 03:26 AM // 03:26

As speculated by some the PvP in GW2 might end being rather weak and PvPers will probably stick to GW1.

That's not exactly a comforting thought given the state of GW1. But at least there will probably be less lag due to no other players

Shayne Hawke · Oct 14, 2010, 03:42 AM // 03:42

GW is PvE centered these days, and GW2 also appears to be very PvE centered. It should be no surprise that the HoM is also very PvE centered.

The real concern, if any, is that the HoM doesn't actually require you to do any PvP whatsoever, which I believe is a terrible mistake.

Star_Jewel · Oct 14, 2010, 03:54 AM // 03:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

The incentive to get better and improve is gone, because they feel there isn't enough time. So they want to take shortcuts. Unfortunately for them, those shortcuts do not exist (unless you are a girl).

Huh?

I hope I'm just tired and not reading this right. What does gender have to do with it?

Markus Clouser · Oct 14, 2010, 03:58 AM // 03:58

I won't go into PvP is better than PvE or vice-versa. PvP in GW is great and so is PvE.

Now, look from outside the box. PvP = mindless killing w/o much storyline (not saying that pvpers are mindless!). Kinda like a deathmatch, team deathmactch etc in some FPS games. Gladiatorial pits with no story. Indeed, there are some nice PvP variants with nice PvP rewards and nice PvP titles. But in the end, it's still PvP, it's still killing each other in rounds for the pleasure of the gods.

From another perspective comes PvE, where everything you do in game is connected somehow to the main story. Quests have awesome little stories and bigger ones unfold in the campaigns. Cutscenes and various NPCs to name some things that move mobkilling to another level, the epic one (the literature genre here). If we try hard enough we can squeeze VQ in there too, in all the campaigns except Proph where you get no reputation or faction.

This may upset some PvPers, and I'm sorry if it does because that's not my intention, but PvP, no matter in what you're wrapping it into, it's still man vs man in an arena lacking almost the whole storyline. To make the crossing from PvP to PvE (just like we did the other way around with VQ and PvE to PvP) we have things like JQ, FA, AB. The PvP monument still gives 3 points out of 50. No other PvE gives 3 points except 5 statues in Honor and the simple "linking" of accounts.

Oh! And I forgot to mention.
Even if you completely ignored PvE (Stuck on an island killing other people stuck on an island), you'd still be able to get 13/18 for Honor and 30/30 for rewards.